“ a compromise formula which includes a proposal to take top 20% students based on percentile ranking of respective boards for preparing the merit list”

How meaningless is this solution ?. Higher education in India will become the domain of the school toppers and Children of affluent parents and we wonder why half a million students leave India to study undergraduate courses overseas. Children who will never return to a country that shunned them.

Is this is what we call inclusive in RTE ?.

God Save India

Inclusive education does not mean that everyone must enter, or pass out from, an IIT. It only means that if you wanted to, you could have a shot at it. The child labourer is excluded because she can never dream of entering an IIT; she may absolutely hate IIT, but not trying to join an IIT should be her decision. Even if there is only one IIT train, every child must have access to the platform where the train comes. Of course, not everyone will get on to the train but everyone knows what to do to have a shot at the train. This is called inclusion in education. Everyone must go to school till class 12; those who work hard, and are willing to work harder still, will join an IIT. Others will, by choice, decide not to work that hard and become economists.

Shubhashis Gangopadhyay


All children are born equal and mindless politicians are trying to grade the children and youth of the nation and create a new Brahamanical Caste system in Education, which is pandering to the neo rich who can afford to send their children to elite private schools and Coaching schools.

"HRD Ministry of India wants to build castles of higher education on the bamboo scaffoldings of its schools" ~ Satish Jha

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"Do you support the effort of Government of India to introduce a Common Engineering Entrance Examination scrapping IIT-JEE which would eventually dilute the IIT Brand?"

Tuesday, April 17, 2012

116 - Poor quality of students entering IITs: Narayana Murthy - TOI


Poor quality of students entering IITs: Narayana Murthy



NEW YORK: Voicing his displeasure over the quality of engineers that pass out of the IITs, Infosys chairman emeritus N R Narayana Murthy has said there is a need to overhaul the selection criteria for students seeking admission to the prestigious technology institutions. 




IIT students' quality getting worse: Murthy - Hindustan Times

New York, October 03, 2011

Voicing his displeasure over the quality of engineers that pass out of the IITs, Infosys chairman emeritus N R Narayana Murthy has said there is a need to overhaul the selection criteria for students seeking admission to the prestigious technology institutions. Addressing a gathering of hundreds of former IITians at a 'Pan IIT' summit, Murthy said the quality of students entering Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs) has deteriorated over the years due to the coaching classes that prepare engineering aspirants.

He said the majority of the students fare poorly at jobs and global institutions of higher education.

"Thanks to the coaching classes today, the quality of students entering IITs has gone lower and lower," Murthy said, receiving a thundering applause from his audience.

He said apart from the top 20 per cent of students who crack the tough IIT entrance examination and can "stand among the best anywhere in the world," quality of the remaining 80 per cent of students leave much to be desired.

Coaching classes teach aspirants limited sets of problems, out of which a few are asked in the examinations.

"They somehow get through the joint entrance examination. But their performance in IITs, at jobs or when they come for higher education in institutes in the US is not as good as it used to be.

"This has to be corrected. A new method of selection of students to IITs has to be arrived at."

Drawing a road map to put IITs among the top engineering institutes in the world, Murthy said it has to be ensured that IITs "transcend from being just teaching institutions to reasonably good research institutes" at par with Harvard and MIT in the next 10-20 years.

"Few IITs have done well in producing PhDs but in reality when we compare ourselves to institutions in this country, we have a long way to go," he said.

More emphasis has to be given to research at the undergraduate level and examinations should test independent thinking of students rather than their ability to solve problems.

Murthy said in order to produce good research at IITs, the Indian government has to be persuaded to create institutions that fund research projects.

In addition, faculty members should also be evaluated annually on their research performance by an independent committee, Murthy said adding that India must shift from the tenure system for its faculty to a five year contractual appointment system.

The Infosys mentor also lamented the poor English speaking and social skills of a majority of IIT students, saying with Indian politicians "rooting against English", the task of getting good English speaking students at IITs gets more difficult.

"An IITian has to be a global citizen and must understand where the globe is going," he added.

Murthy also stressed the need to have the governing council of IITs made up of its alumni.

The only way IITs can become better is if 80-90 per cent of members on their governing council are alumni.

"Nobody is bothered about an institution more than its alumni. We must somehow persuade the government of India to let go of its control and make sure majority of the council members is the IIT alumni."

Murthy urged IITians spread across the globe to work with their alma mater to ensure that IITs are among the top 10 engineering schools of the world.

He said while only a couple of IITs feature in the top 50, there should be at least five IITs in the top 10 engineering schools in the world in the next 10-20 years, he added.

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Experts echo Murthys view on IITs
Teachers And Industry Blame Selection Process For Declining Standards
Neha Pushkarna, TNN | Oct. 04, 2011

New Delhi: The quality of IITians is under fire again. Four months after Union minister Jairam Ramesh slammed IIT teachers for their substandard profiles, Infosys chairman emeritus NR Narayana Murthy has criticized the students graduating from the countrys premier engineering institutes.

According to Murthy, the quality of students entering IITs has deteriorated over the years and they often lack skills required by the industry. The sad part is: Murthys concern may not be unfounded .IIT teachers and industry experts ,too, feel IITians are not formidable anymore. Murthy blamed coaching centres and the current selection process of the IITs for the declining standards. Teachers say they cant agree more.

A professor from IIT Delhi said, I think we should blame the pattern of the Joint Entrance Exam because of which the quality of candidates has been compromised. We could pick and choose an aspirant, who had a deep understanding of concepts ,through the subjective JEE that was conducted earlier. The multiple-choice questions in the current pattern have made cracking JEE a matter of luck. IIT officials agree that many students, who score well in JEE, fail to perform during the course. They manage to clear JEE only because of the coaching institutes that train them in attempting questions correctly. Besides, the reservation has caused further problems for us. Earlier we had 30-40 students in a class. There are over 100 now, the professor said.

We do face problems as many times students lack analytical skills. Many of them are not even regular at school while they are preparing for JEE in a coaching centre. So they often fail to perform in the practicals since they do not have any experience, added SM Ishtiaque, professor in the department of textile engineering and deputy director, administration, IIT Delhi.

No wonder, the students employability also goes down. According to job experts, recruiting IITians is generally just a branding exercise for many companies.

Companies continue to recruit from IITs but many companies now find it better to hire a top performer from a second-grade institute than to hire a mediocre one from an IIT. In fact, one of the new IITs got just 17 companies for campus placements this year. These new institutes may have had the IIT status but the industry is not acknowledging it, said Vinay Grover, founder, Symbiosis Management Consultants. He added that the cream of any batch usually goes for higher studies or management.

Coaching centres have been successfully running the business of cracking JEE .Teachers say these centres only produce crammers, not potential engineers. 

Ishtiaque added that IIT Councils plan to give weightage to class XII marks for selection to IITs is a step towards encouraging students to stay with schools and not run to coaching centres. 

The IIT Council is considering giving weightage to class XII marks along with the JEE score from next year. The Indian Statistical Institute has been approached to devise a moderation policy for all examination boards so that we can work out a formula for selection. This will make students focus more on school, he said.

However, coaching centres claim credit not criticism. Ajay Antony from TIME coaching centre said, Attempting multiple-choice questions is not easy. People have a problem with coaching centres only because students flock to them. Such allegations are absolutely unfounded. CV Kalyan, director, FIITJEE, that sends nearly 3,000 candidates to IITs every year ,added, There is a question paper and coaching centres are able to prepare candidates to crack it. Who is to be blamed Coaching centres do not force themselves on students. 

Today, schools are not providing the kind of education we do. If someone wants to curb the coaching centres, make the schools stronger.

However, students blame exam stress for their poor performance. Students find it difficult to cope in IIT mainly because of the pressure of exams. In IIT-D,we have exams every 40 days. There is no way we can spend more time on projects and assignments. Besides, the laboratory infrastructure hasn’t improved in the last many years. Quality of students suffers because of lack of world-class facilities, said Anand Poonia, a third-year student of electrical engineering.

http://lite.epaper.timesofindia.com/getpage.aspx?edlabel=CAP&pubLabel=TOI&pageid=5&mydateHid=04-10-2011 <http://lite.epaper.timesofindia.com/getpage.aspx?edlabel=CAP&amp;pubLabel=TOI&amp;pageid=5&amp;mydateHid=04-10-2011> 
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Dear friends,
 when well known people like Murthys make statements, they should also discuss what they have done to solve the problems.  For example he is right in being critical of IITs. But he failed to discuss what he has done since he had ample opportunities to work with the governing bodies or the ministers and even the professors.  That would have been most helpful for some of us who have knocked at the doors of several professors and concerned authorities to improve standards. Unfortunately we do not count. 
Bhamy Shenoy
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Well, there is work going on both fronts.

Research Institutes: Kakodakar committee
JEE: Ramaswamy committee.

We may agree or not, but lot is being done. We need to influence these with what we believe is right.
 Ashok Jhunjhunwala, IIT Madras
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The question is Ashok how do we influence people we cannot reach.
I have heaps of ideas and suggestions on how to couter JEE Coaching and neutralising these schools.

Is there an avenue ? I can get a team of dedicated IIT alumni to participate and provide a blue print if you promise to get it across to the Cabinet, HRD Ministry and Planning commission.

Kakkodkar committes survey itself was skewed and I was blocked by door keepers and not allowed to reach him
Ram.K
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I don't see why today's iitian would be interested in research. They want to follow murthy's outsourcing model where if u r a techie u r sold to the customer at x dollars an hour. What research has Infosys contributed to?

In fact if u have a Phd u become too specialized and too costly for the low cost market. And now uidai is spending thousands of crores with not a paisa spent on research. This talk by murthy is just talk; no walk. Murthy is busy investing in microfinance where the returns r high and quick.
Samir Kelekar
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Kakodkar committee report is done. But write to me. If you want, I can send you a presentation. For JEE, write to Ramasami.
ashok jhunjhunwala, iit madras
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Samir,
it is exactly for the reason you have discussed, I wanted to know what Murthys of the world has done to solve the problems they are highlighting. I admire Wipro's Azim Premji. He has started a university to train teachers.  This is a critical input and he has done the right thing by concentrating on this. Earlier he spent a lot of money on government schools trying to motivate teachers by giving them grants based on their performance.  Those efforts turned out to be less productive. I had advised his advisors that that is likely to fail.  
I have studied several high level committees of the government to improve IITs. When the recommendations were good, they were not listened to. More often the recommendations are mediocre.  They are not often based on good analytical work. 

Bhamy 
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Infosys does not conduct any research of its own, but it does reward research. 


In fact, Srinivasa S. R. Varadhan, Professor of Mathematics and Frank J. Gould Professor of Science at the Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences, New York University, USA who is a Jury Chair in the Infosys Foundation, was recently in the news when he was awarded  the US National Medal of Science for 2010, along with two IITians (who won in the Engineering and Innovation category).

Speaking of the lack of research in the IITs, I think Samir would have very pleased to hear of the HRD Ministry's target of "40,000 PhDs by 2020 in the IIT system alone’. Yes, there is realization among the people who matter - and the will to execute it - that India needs a lot more research and a lot many more Ph.Ds. 

kumar

The Infosys Prize - Securing India’s scientific future
The Infosys Prize endeavors to elevate the prestige of scientific research in India and inspire young Indians to choose a vocation in scientific research.

The Infosys Science Foundation, a not-for-profit trust, was set up in February 2009 by the management of Infosys. The Foundation instituted the Infosys Prize, an annual award, to honor outstanding achievements of researchers and scientists across five categories : Social Sciences, Physical Sciences, Engineering and Computer Sciences, Mathematical Sciences and Life Sciences, each carrying a prize of rupees 50 Lakh. The award intends to celebrate success in scientific research and stand as a marker of excellence in these fields.

A jury, comprising eminent leaders in each of these fields, evaluates the achievements of the nominees against the standards of international research, placing the winners on par with the finest researchers in the world.

Categories
The award will be presented annually in five categories:
Physical Sciences - Physics, Chemistry and Earth Science 
Mathematical Sciences - Mathematics and Statistics 
Engineering and Computer Science - All branches of Engineering 
Life Sciences - Biology, Biotechnology, Medicine and Agriculture 
Social Sciences* - Economics, History, Sociology, Anthropology and 
Political Science
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Ashok 
Please share with me the presentation that you have mentioned.
I do not know who Ramaswamy is even to write to him :-) May be you can give me an intro.  I am more interested in JEE and blocking coaching schools that churn out nerds and also keep out the smart but clever students out of IITs.
The problem of coaching schools was created by IITs and no one else to blame but JEE committees.
Ram
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Not surprising... though I do not agree with the reasoning highlighted in the content....problem solving is an essential part of engineer's capability...
I had also anticipated a dilution in standard of engineers coming out of IITs about 5-6 years back...this is when they had changed the JEE to a totally objective type test....you get either 1 or 0 in a question....

in our times, we you used to have numericals which used to check our sense of logic than the answer alone...marks were given depending upon the analysis of the problem and the stage one reached in solving it... 

coaching classes, less research at UG level was there at our time also....it is the analytical ability which is of prime importance in engineers...

the JEE earlier used to screen based on this criteria and IITs honed this skill..

Shashi Munjal
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Kumar, 
Are we interested in genuine research of value or just plain numbers of 40,000 PhD’s...of little global recognition.

I for one know from personal experience, that very few in Australia do a Doctorate in ay field unless they are true researchers.

In India I also know many do a PhD so that they can become academics as  a PhD is a pre requisite.

India might have 40,000 PhDs who will pick up teaching jobs and their research will rarely be reviewed and sit in libraries collecting dust.
There should be some way to weed out and select the best to do genuine research

I also believe M.Tech at IITs are nothing but a degree to give non IIT alumni an IIT badge to improve employability and this also needs to change. Many B Techs who have joined M tech have quit as the B Tech course work was being repeated in M Techs.

IITs I believe need a total revamp. We were sticking to a format that worked 50 years ago. Nothing has changed besides lowering standards as can be seen from IITs Global Rankings that keep taking a nose dive year after year.

Ram
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Kumar,
That does not help. To get an award, one has to have his/her research funded. How many in India can get their research funded well ?


The big problem I find with the Infosys-kind of model is that it kills research. Top people who could otherwise contribute to research become "body" shoppers. Consider my case:


While I can work in the US --- today an H-1 B visa takes just 3 weeks and I have an open invite from a Boeing company right now --- I have decided against it, because I dont want to leave India. What do I do here --- same as what Infosys does. I tried for ten years to develop products --- didnt get any funding and now I am doing outsourcing work because that is what helps me make some money.


We have got branded as the outsourcing shop of the world and no serious investor who wants to develop top class technology looks at India. They are not wrong in their decision.


A small group of ten who really love technology is not easy to put together here. Here, a person when he becomes 25 wants to become a manager. May be there are exceptions like Tenet. But they are just that, exceptions.


The one question that gets asked in social circles here is --- how many people report to you? Our society fails to understand or rather does not want to understand that developing good technology takes years and is not an easy job. I wonder how many of us can communicate to our spouses/close relatives about the work we are doing. People are just not interested in things like research. Our role models are the billionaires who have made money by hook or crook, or even politicians.


My big question is --- will you get top class people doing phd in India unless you really give them an eco-system that supports it? Murthy's son himself is doing a phd at Harvard.


samir
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Rambo,
No doubt. Coaching schools are turning out 'clones' with the basic intelligence destroyed. Had mentioned about this in one of the functions at IIT. Its upto the paper setters to set 'creative' questions which test the intelligence required of an IIT student, beyond just PCM, and eclipse the Coaching school Vice.
Am doubtful whether the guys can even draft a simple note, or even express themselves with ease? !
Tushar
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Sir
I don't agree with Mr. NRN's statement. The coaching centres for IITs exist because our school system has failed to provide quality basic education to majority of the children of our country. In fact, many IITians themselves are running coaching institutions and are great teachers.


Further, the IITs, like all the elite universities in the world, have gone beyond being mere technical institutes. The students of IITs nowadays focus more on entrepreneurship, consulting and finance sectors rather than the core technical sectors because the need for technical manpower is being fulfilled by lower rung institutes.


In fact, Mr. NRN's Infosys is one of the least preferred employers of IIT graduates since the last decade and a half. Maybe he is upset about this.


Further, I believe that great institutions are those who mould their students into great leaders and professionals. The mark of greatness of an institution is less of how difficult it is to get in but more of how good a person emerges after undergoing his education in it.


One of my uncles, an average student and a second divisoner throughout his academic career, was admitted into the Harvard Medical School on the strength of his persistence and Statement of Purpose in 1966.


The 4 years which he spent there changed his life. He was made to work hard but was never ever made to feel bad about his poor academic record, rather, he was encouraged at every step to go the extra mile because as the then Dean of the Harvard Medical School told him 'Son, we selected you because you have potential. We will ensure that you emerge as a doctor as per the Harvard standard.' The result being that he had a global career in Medical Research and Health Policy spanning more than four decades.


That is why I believe that the selection criteria for IITs should be broader rather than based on performance in one single exam.


About Mr. Murthy's assertion on contract-based faculty positions and evaluation based on publications, I would like to say that academics requires stability for the faculty to produce meaningful outputs. Also, the publications based promotion criteria introduced in the IITs has deprived many excellent teachers of promotions because they seldom publish and are content teaching their students.


For example, Prof. Pawan Kumar, Associate Professor in Mathematics Department at IIT-Kharagpur. He is a B.Tech. & PhD in Computer Science from IIT-Kanpur and is perhaps the most popular teacher in IIT-Kharagpur. But since he is obsessed with teaching and considers publications a waste of time he is still stuck at Associate Professor.


Even the Nobel Laureate Dr. Hargobind Khurana was turned down a lecturership at the Panjab University in the early '60s because he was a throughout second divisioner.


According to me, the real problem in India is that we are afraid of making exceptions to the rule for really exceptional people and are obsessed with making binding universal 'one size fits all' rules in all areas of life. We forget that real geniuses are almost always exceptions to the rule.


Achintya Nath Sexen
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Research inherently involves risk, and Indians are risk-averse.
No one wants to fund a project where results are not guaranteed.
Indeed, if UIDAI had to tell the truth and give the real facts of the project ---- things like biometrics may not work, or de-duplication is untested --- it would not get funded.


So, what does UIDAI do ? It fudges, obfuscates, hides the fact, gives a lot of PR
 and then everyone is happy.


This way we cant go far and already the chicken are coming home to roost. The chinese are all over the place; they have hacked into all our networks, and now our critical telecom testing infrastructure is funded by Huawei itself !


Petrol is Rs. 75/- and India imports 80% of its petrol. I remember doing a seminar on non-conventional sources of energy during my BTech in the year 1981 or 82What did we do in the last thirty years ?


We are busy funding UIDAI where all we do is give big orders to foreign companies.


Every IITian is busy developing sales skills because that is what pays!


samir
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Coaching classes are so much a home made Indian answer to the question of quality..

In the same league: when you cannot improve the quality, just upgrade the name.. now we have more IITs named as IITs than most can remember. An Indian way to devalue a brand in the name of "equity" or was it improving quality by giving it a branded name?

Give Unique ID to people: they will still not be able to solve any challenges they face but in their name the smart alecs would have taken Rs 150,000 crores out of the public funds.. A day light robbery, shall we say??

A $35 laptop that is "India's answer to MIT's $100 laptop" roared India's "Human Resource Development" minister 16 moths ago.. Then announced that for 100,000 laptops they wanted Rs 60 crores as bank guarantee (that is Rs 6000 per laptop? what was that? cost? price? why would you want a Rs 6000 bank guarantee for something that you claim to sell for Rs 1500?? what are we missing??)  We never craeted any technology but by saying so we got the attention of the world and have been misleading them for a few years and going by the social networking comments, is anyone really fooled? Tomorrow is the next last date for its launch and let us hope its not a farce..

I sincerely wish Narayan Murthy had given it a little more thought.. Likely that he would have come to conclude that you cannot build castles of excellence of IITs on bamboo scaffoldings of primary education.. There is an urgent need to address the foundation of learning in India. The children has have as much potential as Narayan Murthy realized but their social and governance framework keeps them from even getting started out on that path..

Its unthinkable that in a country of 1200 billion people we cannot send 5000 bright students to IITs every year.. But as long as our education is what it is- 90% are groomed to be unskilled or low skilled, forget about educated or thinking people, there is little hope of reaping "demographic dividend".

Can educationists rise up and create a People's Shadow Cabinet and talk MHRD down to a path that makes sense for India over the next 20 years?

Satish Jha
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I am surprised to see a statement supposed to have been made by Mr. Narayana Murthy that 80% of IIT students are of poor quality. The coaching classes for IIT-JEE, which is being said to be responsible for the so called sad state of affairs has been in vogue for decades now and is not a new thing. 

Yes, IITs would certainly like to get students who have made it through IIT-JEE without going through coaching classes. But let us not forget that for almost all entrance examinations whether for NIT or any other ( including the IIMs after IIT), the students who qualify would have attended coaching classes. 

Indeed coaching classes are now very common even for board examinations. Students who get very high scores at School Boards are also able to do so because of  tuition and coaching, where rote memory is emphasized over understanding the subject. 

Facts being so, how far is Mr.Murthy justified in saying that 80% of those who enter IITs are of poor quality? Has there been no deterioration of quality of students entering other institutions like NITs etc. and State Govt. Colleges etc. who also have attended coaching classes preparing for entrance examinations for these colleges ?  

True, Tamilnadu is admitting students on their School Board performance but is this also not something boosted through tuition and coaching?

I also find it difficult to believe that the majority of the IIT students fare poorly at jobs and global institutions of higher education these days as Mr.Murthy is supposed to have said. Is there not a line up of companies, including some from overseas, interested in recruiting from IIT campuses each year? 

Why is there this line up if the students are of   'poor quality'?  Do the IIT students who try for admissions abroad these days find any difficulty in getting admissions? 

Is the number of IIT graduates being selected by IIMs showing a decline?  Are there any reports from any employer or any University or Institution where the students had gone for internship or for higher studies that there is a deterioration of the quality of IIT students?  These are questions that the IITs may like to answer by way of a rejoinder. 

The bulk recruiters who speak of poor quality of IIT students pick up hundreds from self-financing colleges, where students enter after paying donation or capitation fee. Most of these students would have failed to get in through merit at the IITs, NITs and many such Institutions including the Govt. Colleges. Is it that these colleges produce better graduates than the IITs? The private self-financing Institutions which are affiliated to some University go to any extent for getting good results. 

The entire teaching process is to prepare the students to score high marks at the exams. by rote memory of expected questions and answers. If they are Private Deemed Universities, everything is within their hands. These institutions even coach the students to face selection processes of companies and take over part of the  post recruitment 'training' of the fresh recruits by companies at the campus when students are in their rolls. Good placements and good results are important for them as only then they can continue to attract many students to join them.

RB
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No wonder why they are frustrated during their pursuit of academics at the IITs. Their objective is not entirely studies at the IITs , but what happens thereafter.

JEE should have a mechanism to weed out such misfits. Spending lakhs at the training schools does not entitle them automatically for any kind of higher studies. 

Otherwise how will one explain the Poor Man's coaching classes in Bihar ( conducted by a few good smaritans) where successful IITians are produced? 

These latter variants are fully aware of the need to be diligent and be useful to the society unlike some whose objectives are highly questionable.


S.Venkatraman, IITM
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Ravi Kumar Baskaran
I cannot talk of numbers, but talking to Roorkee students, I feel that they are at times discouraged. Each one of them is smart enough to be as successful as Narayan Murthy. However, in early years of their joining Roorkee, the administration kills their aspiration and inspiration. To pass out from there their challenge turns out to be to follow the rut and not think with their own mind. 

Instead of support, they end up in trivial struggles with the system.
These students are not able to become good followers. Once their confidence is questioned, they end up short of becoming good leaders. Certainly very few are able to maintain their expectations where they started when they got admission. In spite of all the faults in admission process, we are still admitting future of India.

Do you think an American student is smarter than an IITian graduate? The difference is in teaching. India teaches. America learns!


purnima g
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Purnima,

This is like comparing apples with oranges, though both are fruits.

IITians are certainly the best of Indian Students - the cre'me de la cre'me. How can you compare them with an average American Student - no doubt an IITian is smarter than "an American Student"
- and best of IITian grad would compete with the best of American grad student. 

In general terms, IITians do well in graduate schools competing against their American counterparts. Others like NITians or from RECs, when they do get admissions to graduate schools (post-graduation as we call it here) do find the going difficult, until they fit into the system with time.

All said, I guess an average American Engg student would be smarter/better than an average Indian Engg student.

Somehow, Indians learn to learn inspite of having been taught.
-- 
Chandra k Jain
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Purnima

Spot on. More like “Indians Teach at Uni’s through spoon feeding while the Rest of the world Learns while having fun at universities”. 

Now imagine force fed children who are fat and dull as compared with the happy go lucky that eat when they are hungry. 

Hunger for knowledge is what is lacking in the system in IITs, which are more a process line for dummies ( meaning all creativity killed off )
My true education started at Sydney University as I enjoyed  what I did at the Uni and was not studying for grades or competing with another chap. IIT was just torture and that will always be the way I will remember IITM. The only break was when we had a handful of truly inspiring Profs who made us enjoy the subject and learn with enthusiasm. The majority you could cut classes and cram classnotes and score high marks without learning anything. Of course I am talking about what happened 45 years ago. Could IITs have improved since my days in their teaching methods ? I have my doubts. This needs a cultural shift..

Indian schools are no better. My nephew studied at Padma Seshadri school in Chennai. In year ten they threw him out saying he was not good enough and went to Santhome High school in Chennai. I brought him over to Sydney and he did his computer science degree and works for Google and has completed his masters and now doing his PhD while still working. 

At an age when I was starting afresh in OZ he is manager Asia Pacific...and No IIT degree either. In fact one day I should publish an article so Padma seshadri Principal knows that they in fact do not know students true potential

Ram
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Chetan Bhagat ne DUKHATI NAS PE HAATH RAKHA DIYA.

Now that Mr. Narayan Murthy has chosen to criticise IITs, they need to publicly declare,
1. What % of their staff is from IIT
2. Which all colleges they recruit from
3. What % of their revenue comes from real engineering/technology/science work

Even if what Mr. Narayan Murthy says is true the IITians are still better than other engineering institutes which have  in the country.

Infosys has so much of money Mr. Murthy can start at least one real world class institute(as perceived by him) in India.

Vinay S Panchanadikar
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Why are we giving any importance to this guy who earned his money by body shopping and various other means? what is the big deal?

He should be asked to shut up. If the competition has increased, the way the present generation wants to secure their future in the absence of quality parental guidance of our times, what is wrong in getting that extra coaching form some organised schools; move on men and women

Mr Naryan Murthy has the habit of saying something, because of the space and time press gives to him for his acquired accent and well paid speech writers. Is he also not a culprit of coaching because he has some money to spend by cashing in his stock in Infosys.

to me just ignore him, that would do lots of justice to the civil society. 

I have been quite on the group, but too much waste of time by this one guy. 

BKS
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BKS,

That poses the more important question: why does PAN IIT invite such people? Are they so desperate for big names? Who will they invite next? Katrina Kaif? And then hang on to every word she says?

kumar  - Another victim of Socialist India
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Kumar 

Even Amir Khan attended Anna Hazare street show...did he not ?

All these ideas of who to invite as speakers come from marketing and event managers to attract more sponsors and Bhamy will tell you about his objection to Sri Sri Ravi Shankar speaking at PanIIT Delhi meet and How many of us blocked the DOW chemical CEO from being a key note speaker at a Pan IIT meet in USA.

 $$$$ speaks my friend and chaps like Narayanamoorthy and Nandn Nilekani have oodles of it. So every one every where gives them an award an an opportunity to speak only to suck up to these billionaires.

Kumar tomorrow if you become a billionaire you too will be on the speakers circuit :-0

Nandan Nilekani stepped out of Infosys and took up Aadhaar and now he has been made to realise he is no genius he claims to be. 

Narayanamurthy took his money out and invested in SKS finance that was meant to be a not for profit which later went Public made oodles of money over night and then collapsed too as fast as it came up. 

Micro Finance company SKS was charging poor farmers interest rates as high as 29% ( more than credit card rates ). The explanation offered was that it was much lower than 100% interest charged by lone sharks....To me it is Blood Money and NM should be ashamed of getting involved..

Infosys is nothing but a Body shopping company. Period. I believe I said this in 2004 and many IITians wanted to chop my head off. 

But the truth is Infosys is no different to JEE Coaching schools. Infosys made money catering to a demand for Programmers at the rate of 5 Indians plus 100% mark up  for the price of One American. 

In Oz we call this scab labour as thousands of New Zealanders come to Australia during the shearing season as tourists and take away jobs from Aussies at half price :-)

Ram
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IITs and IIMs were started in india by central funds to create some good facilities as catalysts for development of technical education in India.A reasonable level of autonomy was given to them so they could create large pool of technocrats and managers in India, a competent faculty that could develop to research and consultancy and promote higher learning in country and create new technologies

Huge funds are being made available to them

In india the moment  talks started of liberalisation all people in power liberated themselves to loot. Politcians, babus, industrialist and professors of these so called centres of excellence.

Salaries and perks were raised several times  blindly aping western salaries forgetting that income level in India is 100th part of that in USA.

It is out rightly foolish act and word liberalisation is being misused for loot and giving  to self huge  money packets by those in power.That is only contribution of fraudulent expert Singh who is also a stooge of political mafia who appointed him as a cover on political filth,

Coming back to IITs from this macro environment. IITs developed as scarcity based brands. Still they are better than IIMs who are mostly snobbish guys.

First we should realise that IITs are no different from other colleges and  syllabus is same and has to be same.You cant teach  something that is not existing in IIT. Same books and technology is taught every where. The manner in which IITs grill their students with tests bring them close to brake down. This is no education.

The problem is that IITs are used or misused as brand and creating a superiority cadre by IIT alumni and professors who have no interest in cause of technology or public service.

Like IAS they invariably write Mr XYZ IIT Delhi or Mumbai. Ideas is to try to impose themselves on public that they are special because they managed to enter in these colleges by leaving behind crowds of competing students.And that is end of it.

The entrance system in India is so faulty that muggers and sloggers get into the system . of course IQ level of these students is better compared to average students of other Institutes. But that is hardly case to rejoice.

With general fall in education standards and rise in seats the overall quality of students has gone down everywhere.

That applies to IITs as well.The professors in IITs and IIMs are more interested now a days in working as director of private mushrooming institutes to make fast bucks and to give guest lecturers  at heavy honorarium. The studies and research in IITs suffer due to that.

The R*D record of IIT and IIMs is virtually near Zero.

When students enter IITs they have only limited goals. To use IIT as a brand with their name and try to be more than equal with others in profession and society, get plum postings in MNCs or to go abroad to USA and settle there in pursuit of glamour and dollars.

Hence with all this background it is time IITs and IIMs sit down and rethink everything ,shed their arrogance and critically review their admission process, their  products relevance and the system for research.

The only thing professors have done after so called Singh brand of growth is salary growth. Professors  getting for themselves package of Rs 50 lacs is ridiculous and crime with society where per capita income is just rs 40000 PA.What kind of growth it conveys?

In name of globalisation and growth every one is looting the country in one way or other. It is strange that salary hikes are considered growth of economy.

WE should deglamorise IITs and IIMs, make the salaries of staff in line with other institutes, the admission process should be changed and more PG programs should be run by them  along with concrete R&D results.

WE should also get rid of illusion that doctorate degree means some one is great scientist or inventor. It is simply a higher research degree of university and the quality is even worse than Masters  courses. Just because some one carries PhD degree does not mean he is genius, capable and expert.It is already proven by MM Singh, Ahluwalia, and so many other experts in central government and ministers making mess of ethics, morality, economy and social fiber of country in recent years of fraudulent development and globalisation.Loot is not globalisation. Blindly and half heartedly aping US systems is not development.

Every one knows that with delicensing and more production casts should have come down. But  the price rise has touched 300% since Singh took over and 900% in property. What kind of development is this ? We dont want such development. If Singh says that resources are not available hence prices are going up then why has he started fast development policies?

Have our so called economists and Management experts in IIMs able to create a proper growth model and low cost economy or are we simply dancing to tunes of world bank. MNCs and american investing banks, and blindly aping westren glamor and consumerism and salaries like we always did?

So what is role of IITs and IIMs in national development? and what cost?


Prof R K Gupta
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