“ a compromise formula which includes a proposal to take top 20% students based on percentile ranking of respective boards for preparing the merit list”

How meaningless is this solution ?. Higher education in India will become the domain of the school toppers and Children of affluent parents and we wonder why half a million students leave India to study undergraduate courses overseas. Children who will never return to a country that shunned them.

Is this is what we call inclusive in RTE ?.

God Save India

Inclusive education does not mean that everyone must enter, or pass out from, an IIT. It only means that if you wanted to, you could have a shot at it. The child labourer is excluded because she can never dream of entering an IIT; she may absolutely hate IIT, but not trying to join an IIT should be her decision. Even if there is only one IIT train, every child must have access to the platform where the train comes. Of course, not everyone will get on to the train but everyone knows what to do to have a shot at the train. This is called inclusion in education. Everyone must go to school till class 12; those who work hard, and are willing to work harder still, will join an IIT. Others will, by choice, decide not to work that hard and become economists.

Shubhashis Gangopadhyay


All children are born equal and mindless politicians are trying to grade the children and youth of the nation and create a new Brahamanical Caste system in Education, which is pandering to the neo rich who can afford to send their children to elite private schools and Coaching schools.

"HRD Ministry of India wants to build castles of higher education on the bamboo scaffoldings of its schools" ~ Satish Jha

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"Do you support the effort of Government of India to introduce a Common Engineering Entrance Examination scrapping IIT-JEE which would eventually dilute the IIT Brand?"

Thursday, March 22, 2012

44 - Are IIT JEE Coaching centres guilty as accused ? by Ram Krishnaswamy


From: Ram Krishnaswamy-IITM 

From year 2000 I have heard many faculty members blame IIT JEE Coaching centres for drop in quality of students entering IITs. I too believed this for many years.

Today I think back and wonder if Coaching schools are the real culprits. The more I think about it the more inclined I am, not to blame JEE Coaching schools. 

In many ways JEE Coaching schools are doing precisely what IITs have done the last 50 years. Select the best, the cream of the cream to study at IITs and feed American Universities superb Raw material for PG Studies. JEE Coaching schools  also  pick the best and coach them to succeed in the entrance exam. 

Both IITs and JEE Coaching schools spoon feed/ force feed students. 
Why else would there be so many suicides in IITs http://iitsuicides.blogspot.com.au/

I am also aware that so many IITians who attended coaching schools and got into IITs have been extremely successful in their careers.. I know a young man who has been a CEO for seven years or more has many patents and is extremely successful ( In USA of course) Further Campus recruitments in IITs are stronger than ever. What does this say ?

It appears HRD and IIT Faculty and Paniitians who blame JEE Coaching schools may be barking at the wrong tree.

We have to look at the Bigger Picture to fix the REAL problem..

Scrapping JEE and introducing ISEET is no different to Aadhaar which is another white elephant of a System to fix leaky systems like PDS and NREGA.

From my experience Consultants seldom provide solutions. They most often pick your brains and tell you what you already know and that too for a Big price.

I want to hear from IIT Alumni who attended JEE Coaching schools and have been successful in their careers in India and abroad to help clear the mist. If you do not want to post your thoughts to the group please feel free to drop me a note at ramrajah@optusnet.com.au

Rambo
_________________________________
From: Ravikumar Bhaskaran IITKgp 
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:31:13 -0700 (PDT)

Ram,

I agree with you  that perhaps the  "HRD and IIT Faculty and Paniitians who blame JEE Coaching schools may be barking at the wrong tree. We have to look at the Bigger Picture to fix the REAL problem.."

I  have been looking at the careers of IIT Kharagpur Graduates using Linked In, specifically those who passed out after 1982 and find that some of the more recent graduates have indeed risen much faster in their careers compared to the graduates who passed out in the earlier years. Many of the recent graduates seem to have set up innovative enterprises much earlier in their lives compares to the IITians who graduated earlier. More recent graduates seem to be going to the top Universities in USA today like Stanford, MIT etc. than in earlier years and many more taking MBA from top US  Business Schools, the ISB in India and the IIMs.  I am sure that this is not something unique about IIT Kharagpur graduates but applies to graduates of all IITs. For instance, there is a the line up of companies, including foreign companies, at all the IIT campuses, including the new IITs, with very attractive offers, and the almost 100% of the students at the IITs are getting good placements.  All these indicate that there is something probably wrong in the assessment that the quality of students at IITs have deteriorated. It is possible that the trends indicated are possibly due to many more opportunities that the youth of today have. I am happy to see that you are " also aware that so many IITians who attended coaching schools and got into IITs have been extremely successful in their careers.... " . 

Now coming to your request : "I want to hear from IIT Alumni who attended JEE Coaching schools and have been successful in their careers in India and abroad to help clear the mist. If you do not want to post your thoughts to the group please feel free to drop me a note at ramrajah@optusnet.com.au"  

The first query, in the above context, is when do you think these coaching classes  for IIT-JEE start?  As far as I know the Agarwal and Brilliant Coaching has been in existence since 1980s ( or even earlier perhaps).  There used to be a Target IIT coaching by Brilliant for 9th and 10th Standard students even in late 1980s which my daughter took ( and let me tell you that it was pretty much useful to lay the proper foundations in Maths, Physics and Chemistry at that level)  FIITJEE has been there since 1992 as per their website. When did the Kota and Ramiah Coaching  start?  Incidentally I understand that to enter Ramiah Coaching Classes one has to take an entrance examination! Agarwal Coaching also used to admit students who had marks above a cut off at 10th Standard I remember. There has been other private coaching going on for IIT-JEE even earlier.Even if we consider that the Coaching Classes have been in existence from  early 1980s, there must be many in this very discussion group and the IIT alumni faculty who have undergone the IIT-JEE Coaching at one place or the other.  

One of the reasons for many people to think that the quality of students at IITs have deteriorated in recent times could well be because of the Generation Y problem, which I feel that many academic institutions have not yet addressed. Many of the industries interestingly have done so already, as I discovered when I attended a Panel Discussion at IIT Bhubaneswar last March on "Problems with Generation Y in the Workplace" which had senior HR Managers from TCS, Infosys and a few other companies in the Panel. The following article is relevant in this context : http://www.technology-education.net/technology-in-colleges.htm  "A college student's life in the class is primarily spent on computers and other digital programs while time in between classes is either on cell phones or their iPods. Due to this large impact of technology, this Gen Y group cannot think of their lives without technology. Blackboard teaching is now the thing of past and now classroom teaching is majorly done on either PowerPoint or OHP presentation."  There are many learned articles on the Generation Y in the internet. Another article I recommend to anyone wanting to know more of this new generation and how to deal with them is at : http://www.onlinecollege.org/the-8-greatest-strengths-of-generation-y

-RB
_______________________________

From: Suresh Adina - 
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:32:16 +0530

Finally a meaningful discussion about IITs and relation to JEE

1) There have been too many mails talking about erosion of brand value of IITs. Has that really happened? I do not believe so. It is just our perception. In some way as Prof Bhaskaran pointed out, it may have actually improved, despite the increase in intake. I have also had a chance to interact some of the recent graduates from IIT and even some students at IITH. They are quite sharp. I have to admit, quite sharper than I was, at a similar stage in life. I guess children are evolving, and we just have to accept that. Maybe I would have benefited from coaching as well, by proper channeling of my capabilities. who knows!

Indirectly, talking about brand erosion makes us feel superior that the current "generation" is not up to our standards.

2) Coaching centers are only fulfilling the need created by the overall education system. Nothing but a tool for people who have the resources and the will to succeed. It may be so that majority of entrants are from coaching centers, but not necessary that all are. And equally important, not all those who take coaching are automatic shoe in for JEE and just a matter of ranking. So there is still space for raw capability and hard work.

So let us stop blaming and work towards making the system successful. Coaching centers are here to stay in all walks of life. They may actually be helpful. JEE is just a very minute part of it, albeit most visible. 

I am not an advocate of exam specific coaching.

Cheers.
Suresh A
_________________________
From: Sriram IITM
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:38:31 +0530 (IST)

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012, Ravikumar Bhaskaran wrote:
> have been looking at the careers of IIT Kharagpur Graduates using Linked
> In, specifically those who passed out after 1982
> ...
> It is possible that the trends indicated are possibly due to
> many more opportunities that the youth of today have.


There is another factor that can explain the above positive trends along
with the 'negative' trend of increasing number of students having problems
- the much larger numbers going through the IITs today. 

In 1982, the IITs put together admitted about 2000 students. Today, it is nearing 10000.  Yes, lots more students are going through schools and colleges today. But
will what IITs expected of the 2000 then be achieved by the 10000 today?
From personal experience, I have to say this is not happening. As RB
points out, the top fellows of today are as good or better than the top
fellows of then. These are the ones who will get into IIT no matter what
kind of JEE is put out. 

It is the students with the 5000 ranks where we see big differences. To start with, they were not in IIT earlier. What  worked with the 200 ranker does not work with the 5000 ranker, leave alone the gen-Y factor.

sriram

_______________________________
From: Sriram IITM
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:51:39 +0530 (IST)

On Wed, 21 Mar 2012, Ram Krishnaswamy wrote:
> In many ways JEE Coaching schools are doing precisely what IITs have
> done the last 50 years. Select the best, the cream of the cream to study
> at IITs and feed American Universities superb Raw material for PG
> Studies. JEE Coaching schools also way pick the best and coach them to
> succeed in the entrance exam.


There are different kinds of coaching schools and they dont do as above. I
will give some specific examples. Ramaiah's in Hyderabad conducts an
entrance test - about 10,000 students take the test and about 200 are
admitted to the coaching program. This is about as selective as the JEE
itself (2% approx) and we should therefore not be surprised that almost
all the 200 end up successful in JEE. This is one model. At the other
extreme, we have another model where anyone who pays up is enrolled. Some
programs enroll 20000 or 25000 and then boast that they send 400 or 500 to
IITs (the same 2% at work).

sriram
__________________________

From: Ram Krishnaswamy-IITM 
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:38:33 +1100

Sriram, 

You are an IIT alumnus, You are a Topper at IIT and Georgia Tech, 
You were also part of IIT JEE Team at IITM( as I remember) , You are now a senior Faculty member and have great insight into the Problems in IITs wrt to quality of students.

Why is it that the Kakodkar's committees and Ramaswamy Committees hand pick members ( Yes Saar men) as opposed to inviting people like you who are not only interested but passionate about IIT JEE issue.

I suppose that is how it works in mathlabi India.

Rambo
__________________________
From: Ravikumar Bhaskaran IITKgp 
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:29:49 -0700 (PDT)

I am sorry Prof.Sriram. This does not still explain how almost 100% of the IIT Graduates get placed with an average salary of Rs.5 lakhs plus ( some IITs claim much more).  Remember also that IITs open up placements only on 1st December much after all the other engineering institutions in July/August. And let me also share with you, from first hand knowledge, that there are many more companies interested in IIT Graduates. However, they are afraid that the IIT students do not stay back. 

Yes, I agree that the first 200 ( or may be the first 500) rankers in IIT-JEE could be a class different from the rest. Thereafter due to bunching etc. I do not see much difference in quality within the rest 2000 or so. Indeed, in a country like ours, with more people being aware of the value of good education, and better educated parents of today, I feel that there may not be a great difference in quality in terms of students even if we go to 10,000 in rank. 

It is obviously another matter when we talk of candidates coming through quotas. 

The only thing is that we need to think of other methods to keep the technology savvy Generation Y motivated while at the IITs. They seem to do well after leaving IIT.

-RB
__________________________________
From: Sriram IITM
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 12:12:33 +0530 (IST)

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012, Ravikumar Bhaskaran wrote:
> The only thing is that we need to think of other methods to keep the
> technology savvy Generation Y motivated while at the IITs. They seem to
> do well after leaving IIT.


Which is really the crux, yes. They do well, but do well in areas that  have nothing to do with the program they go through at the IITs. This is  what I meant by saying what worked with 200 does not work with 5000 -  their interests are different and they do very well in life with those  interests and their commitment to those interests. 

Unfortunately, IITs  have not figured out a way to hone those interests. I was part of a team  that proposed a general (or undesignated) engineering program at IITM
including a fair share of management courses, but our senate did not pass  this. 

IITB is indirectly addressing this by drastically cutting down on  the degree requirement - it is approximately 125 "standard" semester  credits for the B.Tech. program now. A drastic alternative is to do like  what has happened to GATE - many PSU's are now using the GATE score to shortlist candidates for interviewing. 

In a similar vein, IITs could use JEE to rank the students and then give them ALL some degrees, whatever they want and run the old fashioned B.Tech. for the 20% or so who are the only ones interested in pursuing the old fashioned B.Tech. with designated branch. Of course, many would consider this blasphemy ...

sriram
______________________________

From: Ram Krishnaswamy-IITM 
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:44:12 +1100
Sriram very valuable input and out of the Box Thinking.
Thanks for sharing your views 
Ram

______________________________
On 21/03/12 11:25 PM, Achuta Ramaiah wrote:

hi ram
i wonder so much is said against coaching classes . I never attended one there were not any coaching schools in my time .it was the first time iitjee was started in 61 and we didd not know the question papers would be like. Iwasss pretty sure that since i had completed ISC exam and that the standard would be that of PUC level so i had a positive feeling that i could make it. And i did and the feeling of one among a 100 was a great feeling. was thrilled . and even now stand thrilled
when i think of it. again  a similiar feeling i felt it when i was selected i Services selection board . may be so many chaps getting selected from Andhra coaching centers has stirred Sibal - the Northies  to select from a distant angle like they did for IAS in sixties. just a thought  ram think over

Achuta
Wing Commander(R)  S A Ramaiah
Hyderabad 
______________________

From: GURU 
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:12:35 -0000

I have some pleasant experience to share. 

I did the mock interviews for final year Mech and EE B.Techs at IIT Madras ,with focus on Engineering Industry.

Before that I was also under the impression that those enterd IIT by coaching centres,specially from Andhra side,were not able to cope up in IIT or other future opportunities. wrong I was!

Those who entered with creditable all India Ranks were the toppers in IIT course also - after 4 years of hard work . I am sure IIT is not in the pattern of coaching centre!! They have some stuff for sure.

Other aspects like preparing for the interview, to expect some odd questions from the recruiter, not focussed CV, seriousness on the looks with consistency, girl students with high GPAs particularly not able to impress the recruiter about their stability in Industry - these required improvements were common and not specific to coaching class prodigies or others .

Overall-my respect for them grew higher! 
and my derivation is Coaching centres are not guilty as many of us thoght.
V.Sivaramakrishnan

1971BTMT 
_______________________________
From: Bhamy Shenoy IITM 
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 21:17:16 +0530

I am amazed that why IITs have failed to conduct a scientific study on a critical topic like this and now we have all kinds of anecdotal comments guiding our policy decisions.  

What does it say on our decision making process? 

Bhamy Shenoy
___________________________


From: Sriram IITM
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:19:01 +0530 (IST)

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012, Ram Krishnaswamy wrote:
> what is the intake in 2012 to IITs considering we have as many as
> sixteen or seventeen iits.


Intake for 2012 will be known only about the time JEE results are
announced, end of April or early May. For 2011, intake was about 9600
including 15 IITs (7 old plus 8 new), IT-BHU (which is to become an IIT as
part of the IIT amendmend act that is pending in Parliament) and ISM,
Dhanbad.

sriram
______________________________

From: Ram Krishnaswamy-IITM
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:52:31 +1100

Thank You Sivaramakrishnan for sharing your views. You are from my vinatge (1970) and we are now beginning to see the truth about the Myth about JEE Coaching schools being the culprit for dropping standards at IITs.

I am still waiting for feed back from Gen Y as RB puts it.. Graduates from 1990 and beyond..

Perhaps they do not take active part in alumni groups like we oldioes do.

Rambo
______________________________
From: Ram Krishnaswamy-IITM 
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:54:55 +1100

Bhamy you ask "What does it say on our decision making process? "

Nothing much as always and politicians are screwing up the nation as always

Rambo
_________________________________

From: "Digendra Singh Rathore, IIT Roorkee" <
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:54:15 +0530

Hello All,

I am a 3rd year student at IIT Roorkee and would like to put my views on this.

What I and many others have realized after having an experience of study in school, coaching and IIT is :
  1. School education : The main culprit in deteriorating the quality of students. I was in one of the decent CBSE schools in Udaipur (Rajasthan) which represents the majority of CBSE schools in India, (not every school is DPS kind and not every city is Delhi or Mumbai). When I passed class 12th, I was knowledge level was not as good to explain someone about simple Newton Laws of Motion, the momentum conservation, simple concepts in organic and inorganic chemistry, I knew seriously nothing about physical chemistry, salt analysis, etc. My knowledge in Maths was limited to the solved examples of R.D. Sharma (book that CBSE schools prescribe in class 11th and 12th). Still I managed to pass 12th with 88% marks. Now I wonder how did I do that, but it was simple. Just solve last 10 years question papers, board question paper will not come out of it. Have good impression on teachers, you will get 30 marks (out of 30) in the external practical exams. This much is sufficient to lend you 80% above in class 12th.

    The condition in CBSE is far better, in state boards its even worse. My sister just finished yesterday with her class 12th exams in Madhya Pradesh Board. Before the exams, MP Board issued a set of four sample papers and told that board exam will contain questions similar to these and surprisingly in the board exam a decent no. of questions were the same as given in that sample paper. Apart from this, my sister's examination center was her own school, invigilator were her own teachers, who during the examination solved questions for the students. This is situation in a city like INDORE. Move to smaller places, the situation is even worse.
  2. Coaching Institutes : I went to KOTA and for the very first time heard the name of books such as Physics by H.C. Verma, Resnik Halliday, Chemistry by J.D. Lee, I.L. Finar. Me and my friends in Kota read from the books which our school teachers might not have even heard of. In the classroom, teacher taught all the theory in full detail, but only once (in a class of 120 students you cannot expect him to repeat anything for even 10% students, because majority of the students understood the concepts as everyone used to do self study) Then we practised a lot, we used to solve questions based on the theory we learned. In one year, a student on an average solves more than 3000 different types of questions in each subject.  And we have realized that those who attended lectures only and did not do self study  or practice more questions had very little knowledge of the subjects (even if they were regular in Coaching lectures). 
  3. Everyone knows "Practice makes a man perfect". The success rate in JEE of those students who attended coaching is higher than those who did not, is only because the later only depends upon school learning. Just take a student, ask him to study from books like HC Verma, Resnik Haliday, IL Finar, JD Lee, etc. and ask him to solve 3000 different kinds of question in each subject, Ask him to study for more than 10 hours a day continuously for one year, ask him never to watch TV, go to any function, go to market for shopping, etc. etc... for one year continuously. Then he may crack JEE if he gets a good guidance at home (by parents or school teachers) to clear his doubts in PCM of JEE level.

    I can say proudly that after my 1 year coaching in KOTA I know more than my school teachers and could teach students better than them. In coaching, there are thousands who work hard towards the same goal, so some get inspired, some get the feeling of competition, whatever maybe the driving force, ultimately ends in their tireless efforts towards cracking JEE. JEE coachings only teaches a student about how to make efforts, and I think, encouraging to make efforts does not deteriorate quality of student, or rather quality of a person.

    Also the coaching teachers not only taught PCM but they also encourage and empower the students. In most of the coaching classes you would see teachers taking a sessions on positive thinking, how to achieve success, etc etc.. once in a month. To some extent many teachers in Coaching also build morale of the students. The teacher in coaching are committed to two things : success of its students or to some extent salary. (Salary again being directly proportional to the popularity and success rate of a teacher which ultimately depends upon his teaching style and success rate of his students). So a teacher gives every effort to empower his students morally, ethically and in knowledge. If a teacher is doing only what he is supposed to do, I think he is not deteriorating the quality of students. Also, if the teaching quality at school level had been competent enough, there would be no need of any coaching. But majority of the school teachers have other commitments. Moreover their knowledge is limited to the NCERT textbooks. You cannot trust on them for your JEE. 
  4. Education in IIT :  My experiences are limited to IIT Roorkee only but no wonder if the situation is more or less same in every IIT or NIT. Alumni and Profs in IITs have lot of expectations from the new IIT entrants but do they even realise what we people expect from IITs. After clearing JEE in 2009, I took Mechanical Engineering and my interest developed because of its name "Mechanical" and whatever Discovery channel showed about Mechanical Engineering (otherwise nothing in India has the ability to develop attraction of a class 12th student towards Mechanical Engineering). All my expectations from Mechanical Engineering died in the first semester. Out of the 13 courses that I studied in my first year, only four were from mechanical dept and the rest were from biotechnology, physics (theory of relativity & everything annoying), chemistry, electronics, etc.  
  5. Moreover the teachers fall very short of expectations (only a few committed ones are exception). Some people say that those who come from coaching, love spoon feeding and expect more from our teachers in IITs. Now, if good teaching and guidance is spoon feeding then I think everyone in this world seeks spoon feeding in every aspect of his life because we all seek some kind of guidance in our business, financial, social, spiritual and academic interests.

    And why only judge student quality on the basis of their performance in academics. This coaching born generation has possess more entrepreneurial skills, risk taking abilities, have lesser no. of graduates who run to US and settle there, they find more interest in India and its welfare, they have the guts to challenge the systems, they work for the change they want to see, they questions illogical traditions and much more. The non coaching-going generation also had some brilliant personalities but this generation has more percentage of people with brilliant qualities. This proves that quality of a student has a very little contribution from coaching classes.
  6. In KOTA, every year 50,000 students attend JEE coaching who are given more or less same treatment in teaching, but just less than 5000 are able to clear JEE. This proves that those who have quality and who deserve can only crack JEE irrespective of the coaching. 

Digendra Singh Rathore
________________________________________
From: Ravikumar Bhaskaran IITKgp 
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 03:51:43 -0700 (PDT)

I do wish and hope that all those who blame coaching classes for IIT-JEE and its impact on the quality of students entering the IITs and the lack of motivation seen among the recent IIT students etc. read the following response from Digendra. 

I am sure that the majority of the students at, and the recent alumni of, all IITs would share and echo the same views. Unfortunately our discussion group is limited to a few hundred alumni only. 
-RB
______________________________

From: Gopi IITM 
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:57:53 +0000

This is a serious well thought out response from a student who has been through coaching system and who has completed three 
years in Roorkee. I like his point where he says does IIT know what students expect from IIT and its teachers. And as he says
the only way for non Metro students to have a shot at IIT is through a good coaching school. A valid point.

Gopinath
________________________________
From: Ram Krishnaswamy-IITM
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 22:11:24 +1100

Digendra Singh,

I salute you for coming forward and sharing your views as some one who attended JEE Coaching school at Kota and Cracked JEE. You have done this as a 3rd Year student and that takes a lot of courage. Kudos to you.

Now Tell me what you believe will happen if JEE is scrapped and Replaced with ISEET which is a national common entrance exam that also included 40% weightage for High school result. I have come to some conclusions myself but will not influence your thoughts now.

Kindly encourage other students to speak up defending coaching schools and defending JEE. If they do not want to say it in a public forum, ask them to kindly drop me a note..

We alumni let us say have been there and done it etc, and there is not much we chaps can do to save JEE. However there are over 9500 students who entered IITs last year plus at least 5000 in years 2, 3 and  4. That adds to 25000 students. I am sure if 25000 IIT students join the IIT Faculty members who are opposing scrapping of JEE, HRD minister will have to pause rethink Ramasamys committees recommendations.. It is a pity that the Directors of IITs today are not of the same grit as Diros of Yester Years.

Rambo
________________________

From: Sriram IITM
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:43:02 +0530 (IST)

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012, vadakke gopinathan wrote:
> I like his point where he says does IIT know what students
> expect from IIT and its teachers.

How valid is this point? IITs have some expectations of students and is it
justified for students to come in expecting something else?

To use a metaphor, we are the best apple sellers in the market, let us
say. The market has apple sellers, orange sellers etc etc (yeah and many
who make a lot of money selling lemons). So happens, that most orange
sellers are lousy, lets say. Just because we happen to be the best apple
sellers, what do we do when someone wants to buy oranges from us? We know
very little about oranges, we dont sell them. The buyer knows that we sell
apples, but comes to us anyway with no interest in apples and having some
vague notion of interest in oranges. 

You are the best in the business,  they say, without worrying too much about what exactly the business is.
Should we start learning how to be the best orange sellers in the market?
Would we be as good at it as we are/were at apples? There still is enough
market for apples, but the apple seeking customers are being crowded out
by the orange seekers. Should we quit apples and oranges which seem to
have the customers confused and start dealing in pomogranates and
raspberries instead? 

Or should we try some grafting and come up with the
appanges and oraples?

 sriram
____________________________

From: Kumar Iyer - IIT KGP 
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 05:50:01 -0700 (PDT)

At last, the truth is beginning to emerge.

The best coaching classes are only continuing the practice of nurturing gifted students, long ago given up by our socialist policies. Yes, they do charge a lot and that is what keeps the majority of their students motivated to undergo the brutal regime of "all work and more homework". They are doing a job which the government, democratically catering to the lowest common denominator, will never be able to do. If you watch our population growth trends, you will become even more convinced of this reality.

There are some rogue coaching classes, but each day we see market forces forcing them to fall by the wayside. Would this ever happen to a fourth rate government-operated institution?

India is headed for great heights. Not as fast as China, but we are getting there. 

Only 0.000002% of the country's population will have the mojo to take it there. The rest will do little more than eat, defecate, urinate, procreate, and get themselves a UID.

These young boys and girls are getting a top class preparation for those glory days, whether they make it to IIT or not. As we all know, greatness starts with good fundamentals.

I do not have the experience of having known a student from the coaching institutes, but I do know a M.Tech guy in our company who was grabbed by one of these reputed classes for a large pay rise. He is doing fabulously well, not just because he earns well but because his students fawn all over him. He is obviously a very gifted teacher, and has found his life's calling. 

These institutions are doing a great service to India. Their for-profit business model may keep us from saluting them. But that doesn't belittle what they are doing in any way. Their success is unique to India because the situation in India is unique. They are needed because our school-education system is, by and large, in tatters.

Your open invitation to the coaching class students - the "silent majority" in this situation - to write in was a masterstroke. If only the Ramaswamys understood this.

If one more Digendra writes in, I'm a converted man. So, I am convinced, will be many of us.

kumar
_________________________
From: Bhamy Shenoy IITM 
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:42:36 +0530

Dear Friends,

I have been against JEE for a very long time and continue to be one. 

It is interesting that after reading Digendra's email about how he learnt more at the coaching (exposure to books, schools asking students to study just four or five typical set of questions etc) I am even more convinced that we need total transformation of our education system. 

A small step in that direction is to get rid of JEE which may result in their closure.  We need to make schools and colleges places of "True Education" and not places to just pass examinations. 
Bhamy
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From: Ram Krishnaswamy-IITM 
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 19:23:30 +1100

Bhamy on the Contrary ISEET will give birth to a few thousand coaching schools as the exam is for all students wishing to join any engineering college in India. Now that HRD Minister wants to please IIT alumni by renaming ISEET to JEE let us say we will have  a few thousand  JEE Coaching schools sprout like mushrooms nation wide. Your assumption that JEE Coaching schools will close is badly misplaced. ISEET allows AICTE chaps to rake in more money.
Rambo
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From : Ram Krishnaswamy IITM
23rd March 2012

Bhamy on the Contrary ISEET will give birth to a few thousand coaching schools as the exam is for all students wishing to join any engineering college in India. Now that HRD Minister wants to please IIT alumni by renaming ISEET to JEE let us say we will have  a few thousand  JEE Coaching schools sprout like mushrooms nation wide. Your assumption that JEE Coaching schools will close is badly misplaced. ISEET allows AICTE chaps to rake in more money.
Rambo
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On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Ashok Kalbag  wrote:

Dear DSR,
Appreciated your spirited narration of your experience. However, in my opinion, there are some view points which you may have missed.

Some of the IIT Directors who have been in the IIT system for decades have expressed their opinion, which after a long time has resulted in this new thinking for a change in the JEE (last change was in 2006).

As pointed out by you, the Coaching classes only drill you in solving thousands of problems. (Ask him to study for more than 10 hours a day continuously for one year, ask him never to watch TV, go to any function, go to market for shopping, etc. etc... for one year continuously). This is precisely what makes Jack a dull boy!. Education should be all round, and not only in narrow specific details as they appear in the JEE question papers. If education is imparted so that students are taught how to learn in real life situation, then they will get lifelong advantage of their education and are bound to succeed.

Too much stress is being given to getting into IIT. So much so, that once in IIT, most feel they have achieved their goal and now they need not put in much more effort. These same good students who did not get into IIT have succeeded despite not getting into IIT.

Also, equally true, that not all teachers are good, even in IIT. Just as all students are not good after getting into IIT. How many of your batch mates do you think got into IIT because they were passionate about their branch of Engg, against the numbers who got into IIT because their parents said so, or their friends were getting into IIT?

Imagine the numbers who got into coaching and spent focussed on IIT JEE but did not get into IIT, what happens to them? They would have missed on the normal education which they would have otherwise got and could take their passion elsewhere, but now will be handicapped and frustrated.
Hence there are many view points one needs to consider and not just from those who are in the IIT system.
Regards
Ashok Kalbag
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From: "Digendra Singh Rathore, IIT Roorkee
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 22:59:55 +0530
To: Ashok Kalbag IITB

Dear Sir,

You are very right on your point that education should be all-round and not only in narrow specific details as they appear in JEE question paper. 

Sir, coaching centers are very clear, they say that they are "IIT JEE Coaching Centres" Since JEE paper expects from a student, an in-depth knowledge in PCM, JEE coaching centers guide students in PCM only. If you incorporate analytical skill test, real life case study, sports performance, general knowledge, etc in entrance test then students will divert their efforts accordingly. 

Those who oppose JEE and coaching centres, have detected the problem rightly but are proposing wrong solutions. 

It is true that majority of my batchmates (infact most of the present and past IIT students) got into IIT not because of their passion but because of their parents desires. But why do you blame coaching classes or JEE for this. 

("the numbers who got into coaching and spent focussed on IIT JEE but did not get into IIT, what happens to them? They would have missed on the normal education which they would have otherwise got and could take their passion elsewhere, but now will be handicapped and frustrated.") 
Sir, JEE or coaching centers are not responsible for this. Even before joining any coaching or start studying for JEE, first the student has decided on his own or forcibly that he would prepare for JEE. Once this decision is made, then only JEE and coaching come into picture.

The solution of this problem may be :
  • Educate the parents. Stop them to force the children to prepare for IIT-JEE. Stop parent's desire to get his child in an IIT and for this you have to hide the huge pay package and other success stories of IIT graduates and deteriorate the image of IITs as the best engineering institutes in India.
  • Provide quality education and all round development to the students at the school level. Make efforts to develop such a atmosphere in school which enables a student to find the meaning of, differentiate among and develop interest in engineering, commerce, economics, research, arts, journalism, literature, medical and lot other fields of interests. For this the entire teaching methodology and schooling system has to undergo big changes.
If the student develops sufficient wisdom after passing class 10th (as a result of strong education at home and school), he will choose subjects according to his interests and it will be hard for his parents to force him to take Science. The school education should empower the students in this way.

And if you provide strong theoretical knowledge of PCM in class 11th and 12th and lay more stress on practical knowledge, it will develop confidence of the students in their understanding of the subject. The need for the coaching will be reduced. And hence they will be able to crack JEE with a normal life without coaching in which they can watch TV, attend function, study less than 10 hours a day, go for shopping, etc.. etc...  

(But I fear that in present era of facebooking, internet and every other distraction, a student will be as focused as he is in a coaching, away from everything). 

The other way is to sub-standardize the entrance exam. Make it less tough. Everyone will be happy but coaching will continue to grow and the quality of the students will further deteriorate. 

The real solution of this whole problem is to increase the seats in IITs or open more IIT like colleges. 
Changing JEE to ISEET will not change the following in India :
  • Thinking of middle class parents and their expectations from their children. (still all want their children to get into IIT)
  • The level of competition owing to the large population (in this case the no. of IIT JEE aspirants)
  • The sincere attitude of giving hundred percent efforts, once determined. World knows that Indians are hardworking. ( In this case the hours of study and dedication and hence the stress level of the the students due to the entrance exam preparation, still the students will remain engaged in ISEET and cramming the school syllabus)
  • Coaching classes. They will continue to flourish according to the level of the competition in entrance examinations like in JEE, Medical Entrance, IAS preparation, bank PO, PSC, etc etc...
Current IIT students are a major stake holders in IITs and in this crucial decision their opinion should be given importance.

DSR
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From: "Digendra Singh Rathore, IIT Roorkee"
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 23:35:16 +0530
To: Ram Krishnaswamy-IITM 

Sir,

In present case if new system is implemented :
  • It will increase the stress level of students. Earlier their only aim was to get good rank in JEE (as everyone can score 60% marks in 12th) But now they have two aims : Get good rank in ISEET and Get high percentage in class 12th. They will have the stress of efficiently managing their efforts to achieve two goals.
  • It will encourage more coaching classes. Till now we have only PCM, then we will have English, C++, Physical Education, etc.. as well. The small tuition centers will also transform into big coaching centers for these subjects and will charge heavy fees.
  • Student quality will further deteriorate because the no. of parents wanting their child to enter into IITs would not change and hence the same no. of forced students will enter IITs. But the condition would be worse bcoz the students will enter with lower level of understanding and knowledge as ISEET level will be designed to entertain students from all the boards.
  • It will encourage corruption in the noble sector of Education. More school - coaching collaborations which will assure more practical marks for the students enrolled in the partner schools and also heavy school fees. There is only one way to get a good rank in JEE and that is hard work and performance in JEE. But getting good percentage in class 12th boards may have various other corrupt ways.
  • Suppose a student devotes 10 hours to study PCM for his JEE preparation. Now in ISEET, he will devote 8 hours for JEE and 2 hours for school. Now compare the productivity of these two hours in two cases. In the earlier case, 2 hours would yield understanding of a good concept in PCM (may be extra to what is required) but in the later case, during his 2 hours he will read the NCERT, solve last year's question papers. Now compare the knowledge acquired in those 2 hours. In the earlier case the knowledge acquired would help in building his interest towards any particular subject or engineering branch which he may pursue during his B.Tech. while the 2 hours devoted to school study would end up in improving his 12th percentage only, nothing more can be expected.
  • If only the entrance examination pattern would change, we can expect to have some positive results but giving the 40% weightage to class 12th exam will definitely ruin the IIT system.
  • If JEE preparation creates a huge stress level then why more students do suicide in IITs as compared to while preparing for JEE. Sir cracking JEE after such hard work is a lifetime experience. It gives a confidence to face any tough situation in life. Whenever there is any tough task in front of us and someone raises doubt on our abilities, our counter statement is "Abe, JEE nikal liya hai yaar, ye to kar hi lenge"
Sir, out of these 25,000 students more than 20,000 would be against this new pattern. We all feel the need of some change but certainly this is not the change we are waiting for. I request all the IIT alumni who are against ISEET that please involve students from your Alma-mater in your agitations. A strong movement involving IIT alumni, students and faculty is required to prevent Govt. to implement its weird plans. Alumni have to come forward to unite, those students and faculty who are in support will come together and make a strong stand.

Moreover, we should take help of media. These mails on Yahoo group are limited to IIT alumni only. Let us create an opinion of common people (the parents of IIT aspirants) in favour of JEE. Articles in newspapers and talk shows in news channels will do this work. I hope that the IIT alumni network is so strong that it is not very tough for someone in this group to arrange for a talk show on some news channel (news channel will also get a hot topic)  or to write a good article for a newspaper.

DSR from IITR.
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From: Chandra Jain
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:01:49 +0530

Nice to see a student join in with frank views, expressed without fear. Digendra Rathore has been very focused with his views on JEE & issues related directly to it rather than just ramble on about need for improving standards of education in India.

The coaching classes are being held as the villain in this entire farce of "Scrap JEE" being enacted by the MHRD because of the stress & the expense that the students & parents have to bear - therefore they feel scrapping JEE would remove the source of problems & all students & parents would live happily ever after.

In our democratic set-up, Coaching Centers cannot be outlawed by MHRD - even if somehow they prove that Coaching Centers do actually subvert the selection process in some way. There is now coaching even for IAS - the prelims & even the interviews - we may blame the present crop of babudom to IAS coaching centers but the fact remains that IAS draws the best of talent(next to IITs!) despite the coaching centers.

In the present set-up, even the best of the students go for JEE coaching – but some, in fact, get it for free. The X board toppers are flooded with offers from different Coaching Centers for free enrollment(it helps their track record & publicity). I suspect that the top 50% JEE Ranker's would be on the merit list with or without the coaching but even they cannot risk not taking classes – they may otherwise slip in the rankings. The coaching Centers may not be able to influence the admission lists in a major way – It would be a small percentage who are in the IITs as direct result of coaching.

Whatever exam MHRD may try to replace JEE with, Coaching Centers will stay a step ahead & train students accordingly. It is an industry in itself - what Silicon Valley is to IT industry , KOTA will be in terms of Science & Intellectual training. All that education  & training  does not go down the drain – the unsuccessful JEE aspirants do add to the intellectual capital of the country.

OK, it has started to look like a brief for the Coaching Centers  the fact is that I do not run or own one & do not harbor any love for them either– but they are a fact of life & are here to stay.They are not a monster out to eat up BRAND IIT  – at the most, they are a challenge to JEE – JEE must keep a trick up its sleeve every year & learn to outsmart them year after year. MHRD need not run scared of Coaching Classes –JEE can survive their onslaught & carry on with its assigned job of selecting the brightest of the bright.

MHRD must try to strengthen JEE rather than KILL IT.

Chandra k Jain, B.Tech(IITD), MS(UC, Berkeley)
India 
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From: Suresh Adina 
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:48:15 +0530

Very well expressed by someone who has gone through the system very recently. Can appreciate his thoughts and agree with his synopsis. 

Is there a possibility of getting this published in a National Newspaper or magazine? So far we are getting opinions from staff and alumni of IITs, but a current student gives a better perspective. So this might make a good reading for a lot of people even those outside of the IIT system. 

Cheers
Suresh A
From: Suresh Adina - Jan Lok Pal Team <asuresh18@gmail.com>
Reply-To: PanIIT Discussion Group <PANIIT-Discussiongroup@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:48:15 +0530
To: PanIIT Discussion Group <PANIIT-Discussiongroup@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [PANIIT-Discussiongroup] An eye-opener from an IIT Student


Very well expressed by someone who has gone through the system very recently. Can appreciate his thoughts and agree with his synopsis. 

Is there a possibility of getting this published in a National Newspaper or magazine? So far we are getting opinions from staff and alumni of IITs, but a current student gives a better perspective. So this might make a good reading for a lot of people even those outside of the IIT system. 

Cheers

-- 
----
Suresh AFrom: Suresh Adina - Jan Lok Pal Team <asuresh18@gmail.com>
Reply-To: PanIIT Discussion Group <PANIIT-Discussiongroup@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:48:15 +0530
To: PanIIT Discussion Group <PANIIT-Discussiongroup@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [PANIIT-Discussiongroup] An eye-opener from an IIT Student


Very well expressed by someone who has gone through the system very recently. Can appreciate his thoughts and agree with his synopsis. 

Is there a possibility of getting this published in a National Newspaper or magazine? So far we are getting opinions from staff and alumni of IITs, but a current student gives a better perspective. So this might make a good reading for a lot of people even those outside of the IIT system. 

Cheers

-- 
----
Suresh AFrom: Suresh Adina - Jan Lok Pal Team <asuresh18@gmail.com>
Reply-To: PanIIT Discussion Group <PANIIT-Discussiongroup@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:48:15 +0530
To: PanIIT Discussion Group <PANIIT-Discussiongroup@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [PANIIT-Discussiongroup] An eye-opener from an IIT Student


Very well expressed by someone who has gone through the system very recently. Can appreciate his thoughts and agree with his synopsis. 

Is there a possibility of getting this published in a National Newspaper or magazine? So far we are getting opinions from staff and alumni of IITs, but a current student gives a better perspective. So this might make a good reading for a lot of people even those outside of the IIT system. 

Cheers

-- 
----
Suresh AFrom: Suresh Adina - Jan Lok Pal Team <asuresh18@gmail.com>
Reply-To: PanIIT Discussion Group <PANIIT-Discussiongroup@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:48:15 +0530
To: PanIIT Discussion Group <PANIIT-Discussiongroup@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [PANIIT-Discussiongroup] An eye-opener from an IIT Student


Very well expressed by someone who has gone through the system very recently. Can appreciate his thoughts and agree with his synopsis. 

Is there a possibility of getting this published in a National Newspaper or magazine? So far we are getting opinions from staff and alumni of IITs, but a current student gives a better perspective. So this might make a good reading for a lot of people even those outside of the IIT system. 

Cheers
Suresh A
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From: Mahek Shah 
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 03:44:23 +0000


- Mumbai Mirror march 28 front page

AD claims:
-Based on proposed ISEET pattern
-An IIT Alumni Body (coaching institute)

If JEE isn't scrapped, they(iit alumni) will lose money they spend on coming up with this ad.

Regards,
___________________________
From: Ram Krishnaswamy-IITM 
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 18:50:00 +1100

Sorry Mahek, I am unable to follow what you are suggesting.
Ram.K
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From: Somnath Bharthi- IITD-
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:46:04 +0530

Mahek,

Do you mean that scrapping is certain then?
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From: Mahek Shah 
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 10:37:20 +0000

No, No, but the coming of ISEET is inevitable, JEE and admission process will soon be beyond the clutches of IIT's now.

What I was trying to convey is, irrespective of what some of us wish, (someone likes the good old JEE or someone prefers sharing bed with the new one(ISEET)), these events/changes will throw new financial opportunities for coaching institutes(read: hungry pack of wolves) and also give them perfect excuses to raise the existing exorbitant fees. :)

♎ And most importantly, many of these wolves are iitians ☺ (with reference to the ad I had attached) ♎ (and they are lovin' it)

Also, We are discussing JEE way too much, currently its just a MCQ based exam one can pass by selecting B's and C's.

The Pan-iitian stance on this is a fractured mandate (which is good, democracy) and One can't demonize a child which hasn't been born, who knows ISEET might be better than JEE?

Personally, whatever crap the HRD ministry throws, the ones on the top in ISEET will become IITians, and that's ok by me. (Plus IIT's will mostly have the liberty to conduct an additional exam/ screening process, so we are looking at old JEE pattern (screening plus mains type))

Regards,
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From: Sriram IITM
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:41:13 +0530 (IST)

On Wed, 28 Mar 2012, Mahek Shah wrote:
> Also, We are discussing JEE way too much,currently its just a MCQ based exam > one can pass by selecting B's and C's.

Oh, really, just randomly tick B's and C's and one would pass (yeah, never
mind the we are discussing JEE too much, that part is probably true)?
Would you happen to know what the mean/median score on JEE is? If we take
passing marks as 25%, less than 10% of candidates have your above kind of
wisdom and mange to get a "passing" score. About 25% of candidates score
zero or negative.

sriram
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From: Mahek Shah 
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:44:58 +0000

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend, but that is what I have heard from prospective students, who have heard from his professor in a coaching institute. And it does explain the sudden rise in the number of JEE aspirants(2003- 2 lakhs and 2010-approx. 6 right?)

:) I was purely taking a dig at the "new" MCQ based exam, sarcastically. I had to clear both mains and screening(mcq) to get into :)
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