“ a compromise formula which includes a proposal to take top 20% students based on percentile ranking of respective boards for preparing the merit list”

How meaningless is this solution ?. Higher education in India will become the domain of the school toppers and Children of affluent parents and we wonder why half a million students leave India to study undergraduate courses overseas. Children who will never return to a country that shunned them.

Is this is what we call inclusive in RTE ?.

God Save India

Inclusive education does not mean that everyone must enter, or pass out from, an IIT. It only means that if you wanted to, you could have a shot at it. The child labourer is excluded because she can never dream of entering an IIT; she may absolutely hate IIT, but not trying to join an IIT should be her decision. Even if there is only one IIT train, every child must have access to the platform where the train comes. Of course, not everyone will get on to the train but everyone knows what to do to have a shot at the train. This is called inclusion in education. Everyone must go to school till class 12; those who work hard, and are willing to work harder still, will join an IIT. Others will, by choice, decide not to work that hard and become economists.

Shubhashis Gangopadhyay


All children are born equal and mindless politicians are trying to grade the children and youth of the nation and create a new Brahamanical Caste system in Education, which is pandering to the neo rich who can afford to send their children to elite private schools and Coaching schools.

"HRD Ministry of India wants to build castles of higher education on the bamboo scaffoldings of its schools" ~ Satish Jha

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"Do you support the effort of Government of India to introduce a Common Engineering Entrance Examination scrapping IIT-JEE which would eventually dilute the IIT Brand?"

Tuesday, March 13, 2012

19 - Proposal Of ISEET 2013 Is A Boon Or Bane,What Say? - One India


 [IST]

http://education.oneindia.in/news/2012/02/16/proposal-of-iseet-2013-is-a-boon-or-bane-what-say.html

The Human Resource Development Ministry is all set to go ahead with its plan to conduct a Common Engineering Entrance Examination from 2013, but the first nation-wide test may only cover Technical Institutions funded by the centre.

FIITJEE, the country's first corporatized institute for IIT-JEE and other Engineering Entrance Exams, on Monday voiced concern over the proposed move from Ministry of Human Resource Development to merge the IITJEE and AIEEE Entrance Exams and feel that it could lower the quality of prestigious IIT's.

At a press conference here to discussed the impact of this move on the students and their future RL Trikha, the Director and HOD of Distance education, FIITJEE Limited and C.V.Kalyan Kumar the director of FIITJEE limited spoke at length on the topic “Change of assessing students in school, based on CCE and the current proposal of merging all National Engineering Exams- IIT-JEE and AIEEE with inclusion of Boards Exam. It is a BOON or a BANE?”

According to Trikha, “JEE was a major factor that gave IIT's the exclusivity that they command today. A student preparing for JEE prepared for the test with the sole purpose of entering IIT and not a regional engineering college. “School Boards like CBSE, ICSE are easier to score than compared to states boards. This is unfair to students appearing for state boards compared to CBSE. States like Bihar, the state board awards lower marks than the national boards”.

“A better option would be to have multiple rounds of screening tests, rather than giving 40% weight-age to 12th std results. This decision will lower the standards of IIT, already IIT's have been criticized for lack of quality, this decision may be a big blow, as we do not know what change will follow in the opening and closing ranks of IIT's. There is also a need for uniform syllabus, since different boards have different marking system, which needs to be standardized. And lastly, the student will face immense pressure as there's a single exam to make it or break it” he said.

In case, if everything falls in place, by 2013 there shall be a Common Entrance Test for all Government Engineering Colleges. The CET scores will also be applicable to those states who currently accept AIEEE scores for entrance in their respective regional colleges.

HRD Ministry expects more states to follow the suit. With the decision another significant change is that along with the test scores, students 12th std marks will have 40% weight-age. However, the proposal for merged examination has faced flak by the large IIT students community.

During the conference, C.V Kalyan also shared future expansion plans of FIITJEE. According to him, he said “We are aiming to provide a platform to students for truly global career, yet grounding them in solid Indian value systems”. When asked about the next for FIITJEE in the coming years, Trikha said “Vision without action is just a dream; action without vision is simply waste of time, and action with vision only makes a positive difference in anything you do”.

He also said “We will keep marching on with our core values and keep demonstrating next levels of excellence with consistency to remain a leader in this industry and contribute to society through education at all levels. However, we also have many roaring education-oriented diversification plans through a series of rapid expansion programs for next 2 years in Indian and Abroad.

What do you think so? How would you like to express it? As a BOON or a BANE? 

_______________________________

From: BasabGhosh IIT 
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 11:23:01 +0530

People like Trikha should realise that it is because of coaching institutions like their's the standard has fallen in IITs. Of course they have a concern about HS exam results being given 40% weightage, if this is implemented, their patronisation is bound to fall!

___________________________________

From: Satish Jha 
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 01:03:23 -0500

Standards never fall because of coaching institutes.. That is an interesting way to look at things, however..

As long as IITs do not admit more than they are designed to admit, standards would fall only because they may be lowered by the institutions themselves.
______________________________________
From: BasabGhosh IIT 
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 11:46:11 +0530

( Satish) At IIT level, we are looking for people able to think out of the box, not rote learners. These coaching institutions prepare rote learners who do well in the JEE by power of their ability to mug up, and not their sharp brains. This is how the standards have fallen in IITs. These are the people who find it very tough to do well when they are asked to exercise their brains to find solutions to problems, so much so that some of them can't cope with the pressure and commit suicide! In our time, we found the IIT courses a breeze to sail through as long as you understood the concepts and learnt how to apply them.

On the other hand, compulsory reservation for SC/ST/OBC candidates have meant that IITs have to fill the quota by lowering the standards of admission, which lowers the overall standards.
________________________________________



From: Satish Jha 
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 01:22:30 -0500

( Basab) Well, if the creative "brains" cannot leave the "rote learners" behind then they are clearly not creative enough. If the creative folks could not compete in the basic tests- then the test had challenges as well- it was not measuring creativity.. and rewarding rote... Please change that to measuring creativity and the coaching schools may start contributing to creativity in whatever way they can.. 
______________________________________
From: Subhash Shanbhag 
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 11:53:33 +0530 (IST)

( Basab) Decisions cannot be taken based on any particular body (like classes) benefit.

Now students will probably attend two classes - one for board another for ISEET because requirements are different plus attend college - their burden will increase.
A student who falls ill on that exam day will suffer one year ??
How will the admissions take place if any state board delays it result for some reason
To admit so many students will the IITs be able to set such a paper - The range of marks for students admitted will be very large may be some admissions will take place with some students getting negative marks or 0 marks (in Maths) becasue we know the paper is tough
 Lot of thinking needs to be done before this really gets implemented
Subhash
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From: Kompella Kamesh - IIT- 
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 22:25:15 -0800

IITs get to decide the JEE paper, right? 

If they are not able to stay one step ahead of the coaching institutes, does it not speak volumes about the lack of nimbleness on part of the IITs? 

There will always be people attempting to figure out the system. IIT papers are now predictable, that's what coaching institutes are telling us.

JEE by any other name is still doomed.
_________________________________________
From: Satyajit Roy IIT KGP 
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 02:12:19 -0500

This coaching institute blame is just a false flag. Coaching institutes will adapt ...

The real story is imposition of multiple choice to replace the "short answer problems", which had been the hallmark of the JEE. Falling into the SAT structure is what is the the real goal of the NWO ... :)
______________________________________
From: Ram Krishnaswamy-IITM 
Satyajit,

I agree. Perhaps HRD should look at the Option of Converting JEE Coaching schools into accredited High Schools teaching all the subjects..

During our times Private colleges like Loyola and Vivekananda college in Chennai had an edge over other schools only because they got the cream of the students in the state as well as had better teachers..meaning they were kind of coaching schools helping their students perform better at IIT entrance exams.

Unfortunately the Ramasamy committee and the Kakodkar committee created reports that HRD wanted, to decimate IITs.

Murli Manohar Joshi dug at the foundations of IITs. Way back in 2002. Arjun Singh continued the job and kept digging and Kapil Sibal came and toppled IITs for good.

The Nation should build statues for all these mindless politicians on every campus so the people remember.
______________________________________
From: Venkatraman 
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 18:10:30 

I too agree, Rambo. 

There is the Tripos exam in the UK and the entrance exams for the Grandes Ecoles in France. No one is clamoring to lower the standards of these exams. They cherish the traditions of these exams. 

It is only in India that politicians who cannot think beyond the next election go out of their way to denigrate and trample upon all that is excellent. 

Maha Kavi Bharathi has said  "Nalladhor Veenai seidhe adhai nalam keda puzhudiyil erivadhundo" (Do we make a beautiful veena and throw it in the dust?) and the actions of these people would make him weep.

Are you in India or the US? Do you know if it is possible to bring up a Public Interest Litigation in India against the proposed changes to the JEE format? Since the future of India's engineering education is at stake, it seems to me that it would be in the public interest to bring up such a suit.

Venkat


_____________________________________
From: Ashish Bhatia 
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 23:19:24 -0800

"These coaching institutions prepare rote learners "

I do not understand why people make this implicit assumption. Any evidence to substantiate it?

Ashish
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From: Ram Krishnaswamy-IITM 
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 18:34:44 +1100

Basab, We can blame coaching institutions all we want. The truth is that People in charge of IIT JEE are the real culprits because they made the JEE tougher and tougher in a sadistic way and the exams became so tough that no high school leaver could score well unless he took extra coaching outside school hours…

So let us accept that IITs created the monster called JEE Coaching schools.. There was a huge demand for coaching schools allowing many such schools to mushroom all over the nation..

It was IIT JEE people who switched to multiple choice questions as opposed to allowing students to solve problems on paper where the workings showed the quality of students grasp of knowledge..

When it comes to quality of teachers in Coaching schools and IITs teaching maths, physics and chemistry, many recent graduates have confirmed that IIT Staff are of woefully lower standard.

I also believe that IITs died the day Kapil Sibal created 16 IITs overnight. Believe we should all save our energies and breath and focus on something more worthwhile than IIT JEE and Aakash.

This is my personal opinion. No one needs to agree or disagree

Rambo
________________________________


From: Monu Abraham
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 08:22:51 +0000

Ram,

"When it comes to quality of teachers in Coaching schools and IITs teaching maths, physics and chemistry, many recent graduates have confirmed that IIT Staff are of woefully lower standard. "

I have reproduced above a small porrtion of the string of messages. 

This can be explained simply by what we pay IIT staff - restricted by Govt payscales and a pittance compared to what the private coaching schools can afford to pay their teachers. 

Varghese
________________________________
From: BasabGhosh IIT 
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 18:02:47 +0530

( Ram ) The coaching institutions may not want that. As an acredited high school, they won't be able to charge the astronomical fees that they charge as coaching institutions.

Contrary to the general belief that opening 16 IITs have destroyed the IIT value, I think this will actually reduce the pressure on aspiring students. Considering the increase in number of eligible students now with respect to 1960s, it is impossible to continue with only 5 IITs (or 7, if you take Roorkee and BHU-IT). The increase in the number of seats will also create opportunities for students who missed the bus for fraction of percntages. Then hopefully a sizeable number will remain in their chosen profession rather than becoming investment bankers!
_________________________________




From: Sriram IITM
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 19:54:04 +0530 (IST)

On Wed, 15 Feb 2012, Ram Krishnaswamy wrote:
> "IT was IIT JEE people who switched to multiple choice questions as opposed  to allowing students to solve problems on paper where the workings showed the quality of students grasp of knowledge..  When it comes to quality of teachers in Coaching schools and IITs teaching maths, physics and chemistry, many recent graduates have confirmed that IIT Staff are of woefully lower standard."<

Oh goody, time to counter Rambo's Ravings. :-)

Actually, above two issues are related (and thus I launch into my long story). 

I would not say that IIT teachers of Maths, Physics or Chemistry are of woefully lower standard. First of all, come on, you expect a recent graduate to be a good judge of this? Also, the two are on different missions - the JEE coach has a very well specified goal whereas the IIT faculty member has a more diffuse goal, so it is not fair to compare the two. 

In the good old days, IIT faculty members in the Maths, Physics and  Chemistry departments were mostly expected to play the role of service providers, teaching all the "service" courses required in the the BTech curricula. These departments have now grown into being research centres on their own, much like the Engineering departments, so these faculty members are no longer generally inclined towards putting their effort into teaching BTech service courses. 

This also means that they are less inclined to put their effort into grading JEE scripts. 

In the good olds days some 40 or 50 thousand wrote the JEE, so all the scripts could be hand graded. 

In 2000, a screening test was introduced, as the JEE applicant numbers was crossing 100,000 and hand grading was becoming a monumental task. 

The multiple choice screening test enabled us to handle the larger numbers and the final hand graded test was limited to only the top 20 or 30 thousand from the screening test. 

By 2005, we had enough data to look at performance of applicants in the screening test and the final hand graded test. The correlation was very high - those who did well in the screening test were the ones who were doing well in the hand graded final test. So, the question, why bother with the final hand graded exam at all? 

And hence, from 2006, the former multiple choice screening test was expanded into the only test. We realize now that the hand graded test was perhaps an important component and the student's preparation for it was what prepared them for IIT. Now, they get in without their skills at this type of long written test being examined. 

Is there some way to go back to that? 

Given the numbers, there is no way IITs can handle everyone taking on the long test. One of the ideas floating around is to use the XII marks and/or a multiple choice test to screen applicants and use an old fashioned hand graded final exam to decide admissions. 
But, will this work? With today's gen X or gen Y or gen Z or whatever with the focus on instant gratification, will we find enough takers for the old fashioned exam and the old fashioned teaching and learning that went with it? 
And by takers, I mean both students and faculty ...
sriram 
___________________________________



From: Venkatraman IITM
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 19:08:52 -0000

Rambo, I just saw your online petition and signed it.
If you think the PIL is a good idea, please let me know and I will be happy to volunteer / contribute in any way I can.
 Venkat
______________________________


From: Ram Krishnaswamy-IITM 
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:33:19 +1100

Venkat nothing will change the mindset of Indian Politicians like Kapil Sibal. Plus PanIITians have endorsed the idea of a Common entrance exam in a document titles Pancha Ratna

Save IIT petition  has received only 2443 signatures while we have 175000 IIT Alumni.

PIL in India opposing anything the Govt is doing is a waste of time in my honest opinion. The judges conveniently say it is beyond them as they did with PILs on Reservations and irregularities in IIT JEE put forward by Prof Rajeev Kumar of IIT KGP. He has been suspended on loss of pay on trumped up charges while IIT KGP Diro who was Changed by CBI is still officiating as Diro..

IIT JEE was administered by IITs and was free of corruption. ISEET will be administered by HRD Officials same as Corrupt AICTE.. 

There is big money to be made controlling a national exam, and many people are already rubbing their hands at the great opportunity..of selling seats in IITs  …for a price..

Top Pan IITians meaning the rich and famous are members of the PM's advisory body and they have obviously endorsed the ISEET, which appears to be an enigma.

IF HRD could develop an unworthy gadget called Aakash wasting a Billion dollars of Tax Payers money, ISEET is a source of Tax Payers funds in perpetuity for HRD Babus and Ministers to pocket.

In the realm of things who are people like you and me to question ministries ? 
Do we have the stomach for a PIL against Policies of a UPA II Coalition that cost the exchequer US $ 40 billion in just 2G scam ? 

Rambo